Rules of conduct

Welcome at the Cafeteria! Here you can exchange ideas with Coticule users
from around the globe.
Please make sure you understand our forum rules!

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DENNIS KELLY (DJKELLY)
+1
From: United States
Posts: 774
I have been lurking on this thread since I think the study pretty much speaks for itself, until I hit the link to the SRP thread. Without spewing my real feelings I was totally surpised at the tone of the thread being Coticule.be commercialism. For the record, I don't know anyone with more commonly displayed honesty and integrity than Bart. It is hard not to wade in with venom directed toward SRP. Hope I don't sound like one of those sycophants you see out there. Sincerely, Denny
STAMP OUT QUICKSAND
2011-02-03 15:33
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Matt
Associate
From: Poland
Posts: 1047
iconBart:
For the record: I have never earned a single penny with my Coticule (and BBW) hobby. When I visit Ardennes, Maurice sometimes pays for my lunch. Accepting anything more, I would consider unethical. If I buy a hone, I insist on paying the same price as everyone else. It is the only way I am prepared to host this website and its forum. I am grateful for the opportunity to have this hobby and share it with some many fine people. That is a reward money can't buy. In fact, it is a reward I'm not prepared to sell out for some Earthly assets. Call me selfish.

Bart, I think most of us are perfectly aware of it. The suggestions at SRP are, well, disgusting.

regards,
Matt
"Very interesting indeed :) I did something similar with cheese a while ago" - Dr Ralfson
2011-02-03 15:42
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Robin
Posts:
If you want to judge a man's character, give him power. Highly amusing, like a horrible road accident. But the best is yet to come, trust me.
2011-02-03 16:17
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BlacknTan
From: United States
Posts: 176
Unfortunately, there are people in this world that have no understanding of another doing things just for the love of it, to honor tradition and/or just because they are caring human beings.
It seems to be quite a sad commentary on our times that no one takes one another, or their actions at face value. How can a person just wish to do nice things for another?? There must be an angle.. They must be trying to make money... They must be trying to get something over on me!
Maybe it has cost me over the years, but I'm glad I never subscribed completely to that way of thinking. I still take most people at face value, and thought them trustworthy until proven otherwise.. And I'm happy I'm built that way.
Now, I'm not any better than anyone else. I believe that most folks look for good in others, rather than the bad. In any case, I feel sorry for those that don't.

As for other forums... I guess Plato said it best..

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."
Better a diamond with a flaw than a polished pebble...
2011-02-03 16:18
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Harvitz81
From: United States
Posts: 100
Thanks once again for undertaking this study all involved! My 2 combo coti's right now have BBW sides unsuitable for honing (inclusions on one, chips on the other). When I get my La Veinette bout from Maurice I will most definitely be giving these new methods a try. :thumbup:
2011-02-03 18:03
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RicTic
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 240
iconDJKELLY:
I have been lurking on this thread since I think the study pretty much speaks for itself, until I hit the link to the SRP thread. Without spewing my real feelings I was totally surpised at the tone of the thread being Coticule.be commercialism. For the record, I don't know anyone with more commonly displayed honesty and integrity than Bart. It is hard not to wade in with venom directed toward SRP. Hope I don't sound like one of those sycophants you see out there. Sincerely, Denny

I've read that thread and the comments made about this sites commercial interests. The initial comment included a couple of 'Thanks' acknowledgements below it made by two particular individuals. The irony wasn't lost on me.
Neither was my disgust at the ignorance displayed.
I was hoping this thread wouldn't be spoiled by what was being said over there. I still am.
The less said here, the better.
Kek man camov te jib bolli-mengreskoenaes,
Man camov te jib weshenjugalogonaes.
2011-02-03 18:27
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vgeorge
+1
Posts: 273
iconRicTic:

The less said here, the better.


I cannot be forceful enough to agree with that.

Caravan should move on, let the dogs bark ...
George
------
Proud owner of Franz Kline Coticule from Ardennes via Bart
Hoping for Edge, Working on Bevel. © 2010
2011-02-03 18:35
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danjared
From: United States
Posts: 1000
On the other hand, the report has been received well by many who will hopefully benefit from it. :thumbup:
2011-02-03 19:02
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Drybonz
Posts: 96
I just finished reading the results of the study. You guys really did extensive research on this. Thanks for the well-written report. I found it very interesting.
2011-02-03 19:16
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Harvitz81
From: United States
Posts: 100
icondanjared:
On the other hand, the report has been received well by many who will hopefully benefit from it. :thumbup:


Agree! Those who have an open mind about honing and are not stuck in a closed mindedness thought process about how these stones were traditionally used will most definitely benefit.
2011-02-03 19:53
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
iconvgeorge:
That said, we should be mindful that the studies do have a not-quite-intended exclusionary bend. The studies are carried out by people predetermined to have a bit fanaticism about 'da stone.' Once you know your child has the most beautiful face, then turn your attention to its vertebrae, guess what you are likely to find? :confused: Just something to be mindful about in research designs.


George, you are right of course. But where in the study do you read a conclusion about Coticules or BBWs being better than other hones? When I decided to start this experiment it was clear that we could not test more than 2 or 3 hones. The parcel needed to be under 1kg, for reason of shipping costs. 3 razors, hones, a slurry stone, a tube with hairs, it all adds up quickly.
We could have opted for 3 BBWs, but then there was no reference. Yet, what to choose for reference? A small Escher? That would only have turned it more into a hone contest, in people's minds. A Norton4K/8K? Too heavy, and in spite of what some think, not much of a standard either. Why not use a Coticule then? It has been a standard for honing razors for over 2 centuries. And we could select a combination Coticule/BBW, and add a bit of much needed padding to the parcel.

But even is we dismiss the Coticule as a reference hone, we still had our well defined Razor Performance Form, that also in absolute terms functions well to describe the performance of a razor's edge. And the RPFs revealed that the BBW edges were "plenty shaveready", so to say. If you read our conclusion: "a BBW can be considered a valuable alternative for refining and finishing the edge of a straight razor", you can't say that we didn't formulate with consideration.

I estimate that the majority of BBWs out there, whether blue sides of combo Coticules or separate BBWs, have yet to see their first use for finishing a razor. Many of those are in possession of a straight razor shaver for years. Why should giving it some well deserved attention be received as a call for exclusionism?

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-02-03 20:34
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chti_lolo
Posts: 376
I have read more thoroughly the study and I have just two remarks to make:

1) is the DA the best gauge for this test? could the results be different with a razor holding a better edge
2) as a coticule user, I find that there is some cheating;) using stropping strokes on the BBW and a bit unfair for the coticule:lol: .

That being said, I think the approach was very rigorous and the result analysis unbiased.

But what is very interesting is to find that BBW is as good(or very near) to coticule as a finishing stone.

On french forum, where coticule is the most used hone, only few people people consider that BBW can produce an edge compatible with shaving. So saying that BBW is a very good finisher is a total break which requires an assessment like this.

Regards

Laurent
2011-02-03 22:14
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
It is true that Double Arrows might not allow for the finer readings when it comes to edge qualities. For future experiments, we've already upgrades to a nice set of top notch Revisors. (see the fundraiser thread).

Best regards,
Bart
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-02-04 01:50
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Robin
Posts:
I don't think there's a problem with using Double Arrows, as long as they're all of the same quality. Which they apparently are. So even if they suck, they suck uniformly. :)
2011-02-04 08:09
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
iconBeBerlin:
I don't think there's a problem with using Double Arrows, as long as they're all of the same quality. Which they apparently are. So even if they suck, they suck uniformly. :)


Agreed, but if i may make a comparison out of the woodworking field, there are some wood species that you can sand up to the fineness of 300 grit sandpaper, and you won't get any further improvement to go any further (unless you'd started filling pores, etc, but let's neglect that for the sake of this comparison). Other wood species you can sand up to 600 grit, and still notice improvement in the smoothness of the surface.
In steel their is something similar going on with variable size of carbides, which influences the microstructure of the steel, and how refined the bevel tip can be made. That's why different razors give different results even when the same hones and skills are applied.
The Double Arrows served us well, their steel is not that bad, but I'm almost sure that if we would have exchanged one of those Double Arrows with one of the Revisors we will be using for future experiments, that Revisor would have had a bigger influence on the quality of the test shaves than the differences introduced by the hones themselves.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-02-04 10:17