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Emmanuel Giannoulakis (Emmanuel)
Advisor
From: Greece
Posts: 942
iconPebcak:
icontat2Ralfy:
iconEmmanuel:
Straight razor shave without shaving brush its like to make love without a woman.
Best regards
Emmanuel


Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time my friend lol

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)


Yes sir, that is very funny. :lol: In fact with your permission Emmanuel I may steal it and use it as a signature.


Of coarse you can.
Best regards
Emmanuel
Emmanuel Giannoulakis
from Athens Greece
2011-11-20 00:59
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pinklather
Posts: 176
To borrow from Mel Brook's 'Young Frankenstein':

Heresy is an ugly thing. And I think its about time we had some. :D

4 pages and no one has tested and reported back. I guess someone's gotta be the heretic.

All I did was try the newspaper over a flat stone. 4 blades. 3 recently honed, the 4th was a wacker needing a touch up.

'Tried from 5 - 70 strokes. I hone w/ one layer of thin (.009") tape. Stropping was done w/out tape. Each blade, tested by modest wtg stroke, dry. felt like an improvement in the edge. I will test the wacker in a full shave today. It received the 70 strokes.

Another US blade (Crown Razor, Boston) got refinished, ending w/ 30 strokes. It will have the regular shave test also today.

**Emmanuel - you're humor is as good as your graciousness. Thank You!**
2011-11-21 20:34
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danjared
Moderator
From: United States
Posts: 1000
iconpinklather:
To borrow from Mel Brook's 'Young Frankenstein':

Heresy is an ugly thing. And I think its about time we had some. :D

4 pages and no one has tested and reported back. I guess someone's gotta be the heretic.


If you look over this thread, I think you'll find little if any doubt that this honing method works. In fact, the disagreement is really about the other things he says, namely Murray Carter's statements concerning other ways to hone.
2011-11-21 20:40
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
Heretic or not. Let's battle the lack of science based truth in this whole discussion with further facts.

I happen to work in the newspaper printing industry.

Newspaper is very simple paper. No significant abrasion. Stropping on newspaper can, at best, be compared to stropping on linen, when it comes to the abrasiveness of the chemical components of paper. Mainly cellulose, some hemi-cellulose and traces of lignin (the hardest of those 3).

Ah, but it's all about the ink, right?:)

Black newspaper ink is made from Soy oil and carbon black. Interestingly, Carbon Black has a particle size of in between 0.01 micron and 0.1 micron. That is still, at its largest, 5 times smaller than the typical Chromium Oxide particles used for sharpening.
But what really turns this whole sharpening on newspaper thing into a hoax is the hardness of Carbon Black. It's in between 2 and 3 on the Mohs scale. That's nowhere near hard enough to exert any abrasion on hardened steel (somewhere around 6 on the Mohs scale). Luckily so, because otherwise a newsprint press running at 40000 prints per hour, would see some serious wear on the parts that make a rubbing contact with the ink. Not to speak of the printing plates themselves, that are made of soft aluminum.

In conclusion, it is impossible to get any abrasion from rubbing steel on black newsprint. I am not saying that it can't possibly do anything. But you must seek in the direction of edge coating, rather than honing or sharpening. Stropping on newsprint might, just might, have some significance as the Do-it-yourself equivalent of teflon-coating (which is done to many commercial razor blades). Newspaper ink gunks up amazingly fast. It is sort of designed to do that. If you ever rubbed your hands a couple of times over a densely printed part of a newspaper, you know what I mean. It is also formulated to repulse water, because offset printing relies on that by principle. That's why the gunked up ink will stay in the bevel grooves and will survive rinsing during the shave.
If I was interested in trying this sort practice, I'd do it as a very last step before shaving.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-11-22 00:59
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pinklather
Posts: 176
Bart Thank you for bringing some of the realities of the physics of newsprint to the discussion. Its not an area I'm fluent in, and gladly defer to your knowledge there.

Now - shave results

Wacker (15/16 full hollow0 started out maybe needing a touch-up, 'Got 70 strokes on 3 sheets of newsprint, and a dry stroke or two was promising.

Crown Razor 11/16 1/2 hollow. Shaved well, but I refinished on Asagi w/ very light slurry, diluted to water over 60-70 strokes. It then got 30 strokes on newsprint.

Both razors then received my normal post honing strop regimen - 100 strokes flax-based linen, 100 strokes Illinois 361 (high-draw cowhide), 100 strokes Shell.

The crown was less improved, but the best it has shaved. Keenness was hht3-4

Wacker was noticably improved, no longer needing a touch-up. hht mostly 4.

Both were very pleasant to shave with, and rather friendly to the face. The crown is likely being sold, but was so enjoyable I was 3/4 of the way through the first pass before remembering i wanted to shave w/ the Wacker.

Observations: Wacker got more strokes and was most improved. Both were very pleasing.

Want to try: Bart's recommendation about making it the last operation before shaving.
More strokes for the Crown to see if it continues improvement.

FWIW
2011-11-22 02:13
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vgeorge
+1
Posts: 273
FWIW, sometime ago when I started on straight razor shaving, I did not have a leather strop for several weeks and followed the advice to strop on newspaper. I may not have been able to discriminate well enough as a novice, but newspaper stropping seemed to work quite adequately.

I do not recall Carter making the claim along the line that newspaper is intended to abrade metal. My impression is distinctly that it was proffered towards the end of the regimen as an edge 'finishing' step. My sense is that for Carter too it was not different from:
iconBart:
... Stropping on newspaper can, at best, be compared to stropping on linen ...


My impression also is that Carter's distinction of edge-leading vs edge-trailing is not based on affirming abrasion over plastic-flow, but simply that trailing strokes can be less damaging to the edge.

I realize speculating about micron-level phenomenon is a slippery slope. Until one can watch through an electron microscope, logic is your only ally. So, I wondered how I, or anybody, should 'choose' edge leading versus trailing versus a combination. (Of course, there is no option is some cases as in leather or linen stropping.)

My sense is that, for manual sharpening, given the architecture of human hand and the usual geometry of blades and knives, edge leading can be aggressive for metal removal while edge trailing more gentle. I am not afraid to be disproved.
George
------
Proud owner of Franz Kline Coticule from Ardennes via Bart
Hoping for Edge, Working on Bevel. © 2010
2011-11-22 03:36
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pinklather
Posts: 176
VGeorge,

I've heard of using newspaper - which is where the mention of the print/ink content came from. I don't have a way to confirm or deny the ink affect, and am inclined to hear Bart when he casts doubt on it. In these threads, the paper was placed on the cover of a hardback book or similar object. Never what the paper placed over a hard stone. When you used newspaper - what did you put the paper on?

That the paper would compare to a canvas/linen strop sounds right, but the effects from this stropping excede what I've gotten from even flax based linen. I can't make sense out of why it should be that way, but the fussy hard steel Wacker doesn't need a touch up now. Maybe a short-lived improvement? I don't know. I'll keep shaving with it to see if the edge persists as is would from a honing.
2011-11-22 05:37
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danjared
Moderator
From: United States
Posts: 1000
pinklather, do you use linen on a hanging strop or on a hard surface like you use newspaper?
2011-11-22 05:52
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vgeorge
+1
Posts: 273
Pinklather,

I have a granite slab on which I put the newspaper folded few times over.

I read with interest your "experiment" and will watch out for your reports on the longevity of the Wacker edge.

It is totally fascinating that you found newspaper to have better effect than flax based linen!

George
George
------
Proud owner of Franz Kline Coticule from Ardennes via Bart
Hoping for Edge, Working on Bevel. © 2010
2011-11-22 06:03
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Smythe
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 990
Stropping on newspaper, I suspect an improvement is a result of burnishing (Plastic Flow)... like stropping on leather before a shave.
2011-11-22 08:30
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pinklather
Posts: 176
Danjared - Dang good question. I've not tried backing the linen w/ a hard surface. I would think it would approximate the same affect, but the yield or 'give' in the linen, I would think, would make it slightly less pronounced. I will try this, 'cause it makes too much sense not to.

Vgeorge: I will keep using this blade for at least a week. The Carter vid has him describing the reason for the hard backing as eliminating any convexity from the flex in the hanging strop. Maybe that's correct, maybe not, but there's not downside to testing for myself. Your use of the granite slab would seem an excellent way to go.

Smythe: I would think the burnishing is right, but would also be present from a normal hanging strop. The only difference being the resulting profile of the bevel/edge from a single plain, vs an arc/convex surface from the flex.

Just for the record. I'm not suggesting Carter's methods are any kind of end-all process. Like input from many skilled guys - if it works for me, I've learned something. The idea that the burnishing in a flat plain would feel different on the face - makes sense. It also has me contemplating backing both my linen and leather with a hard surface. The linen and leather would have more flex, but might yield a different feel to the finished edge also.

Also for the record: I don't assert that alot of text/ink has an affect, but that others posted they thought it was more effective. Its not an area I can confirm or deny. I appreciate Bart's weighing in w/ the physics of the materials.
2011-11-22 16:17
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
It has never been observed that stropping on a surface that was not treated with abrasives (particles harder than the steel of the edge), could lead to a convex bevel. One can fold the edge over by turning it over on the strop, but that is not the same.
As most shavers I know, I strop my razors on hanging strops. I'm in the habit of doing 20 laps on linen and 40 on leather. My linen has chalk on it, because I suspect that it promotes burnishing, and because I like how it makes the fabric feel for stropping. My leather is clean. Even after 30 shaves, there is no significant convexity in the bevel. I know this for two reasons. Convexity can be seen under magnification (stereo microscope) by observing how the light reflects of the bevel while it it lowly turned along it's axis. The seine reason, is because I predull my edges on glass before I rehone them. They do not shave arm hair at that point. It takes until the bevel sides are fully flattened, before the very edge will respond with gaining arm shaving sharpness once again. If the bevel was still flat to start with, that happens almost immeditately. If on the other hand the bevel was convex it can take a considered amount of time before the very edge contacts the hone.
On the other hand, strops that are loaded with abrasives, can convex a bevel in short time, when they are not placed on a flat rigid surface. Not that there's anything wrong with that, convex bevels can shave as well as straight ones.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-11-22 23:34
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vgeorge
+1
Posts: 273
Yes, Carter does claim 'rounding' from 'aggressive' stropping on hanging leather, while the more accepted terminology, for sure, is 'rolling'. There were also bits of defensiveness and touch of grandstanding, etc. His examples were over-wrought in places, although it is very difficult to explain verbally some of these things, even with crude models and graphics.

Bart, the chalk you use on linen, is it ordinary chalk one would use on, say, Blackboard - or some special formulation?
George
------
Proud owner of Franz Kline Coticule from Ardennes via Bart
Hoping for Edge, Working on Bevel. © 2010
2011-11-23 01:06
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
Nowadays, it's chalk I picked up at the "Seven Sisters" cliffs in South-East England. But that's only because I'm a sentimental fool.:)
I started out with Dovo's white strop conditioner, which Has been reported to contain chalk. Then I switched to drawing board chalk, which actually contains usually gypsum and kaolin. They both have a hardness around 2 or 3 on the Mohs scale.
But then I stole a piece of England's white cliffs and brought it home. It works all the same: it clogs the pores of the fabric, which lends it a nicer "stropping feel" by my experience. And it also may make the linen slightly more effective, but that may very well be a self-dillusion.
I've done a side by side comparison of the Kanayama linen, of which I own two straps, chalked and unchalked. And I've done the same for two jute straps. The chalked version strop "smoother", and when test shaved directly off the fabric, the chalked versions provide a nicer shave. But when followed with normal stropping on clean leather, I could no longer detect much difference between the preceding fabric strops.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2011-11-23 01:33
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vgeorge
+1
Posts: 273
Thanks! :)

Sounds exciting to be able to use a part of the cliffs of English "Seven Sisters" before every shave. :lol:

Sorry, could not help myself. ;)

I will settle for some Blackboard chalk. :(
George
------
Proud owner of Franz Kline Coticule from Ardennes via Bart
Hoping for Edge, Working on Bevel. © 2010
2011-11-23 01:44