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Paul
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 1388
I have to ask, is that new price for a La Veinette a typo? Having used one and comparing it to Les Latneuses, La Grosse Blanche, and La Petite Blanche, that would be a very surprising price if accurate(personally, it was my least favorite vein in my albeit minimal testing)... At any rate, I certainly wouldn't have guessed it deserving that much of a premium (roughly 200% increase compared to roughly 50% increase in other layers)...

I can appreciate the need for an increase, though
Paul
"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" - Greg Anderson
my blog- and it works again :p
2010-09-12 04:01
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chti_lolo
Posts: 376
Bart and al.,

Thanks, it was exactly the kind of answer I was waiting for. Reading the layer's description, I have had a doubt because it seemed to me that the differences were much more important.
To make another bike comparison : almost any child can learn to ride a bike, but it will take more time for some. In the same way, almost anybody with a good training methodology, a proper physical preparation and a well suited bike can succeed in climbing a tour de France pass or doing a 200km trip in a day. But if you give me Lance Armstrong's bike even if it is a very,very good and expensive bike, it will be very hard for me to climb the Galibier.

So if money were an issue with the new price list, and I only want to succeed in unicot and dilucot
iconBart:
For doing that, it is my opinion that La Grise, La Verte and La Veinette are easiest. But the difference is only minor.
I have much more choices than I thought.
The difference between selected or standard remains cosmetic. The only real drawback is the possible presence of void in standard which may require some lapping.

It's always a real pleasure to be able to benefit from advices of members of a communauty who masters established techniques.


Regards

Laurent
2010-09-12 08:00
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BlueDun
Insider
From: Switzerland
Posts: 333
iconBart:
For doing that, it is my opinion that La Grise, La Verte and La Veinette are easiest. But the difference is only minor.
Bart.


I haven't been able to get even close to a keen edge with my La Grise (the one with the brown concrete backing). For sure I'll take it to the pilgrimage so you can help me reveal the proper approach with that rock.

Cheers
BlueDun
2010-09-12 09:47
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
iconrichmondesi:
I have to ask, is that new price for a La Veinette a typo? Having used one and comparing it to Les Latneuses, La Grosse Blanche, and La Petite Blanche, that would be a very surprising price if accurate(personally, it was my least favorite vein in my albeit minimal testing)... At any rate, I certainly wouldn't have guessed it deserving that much of a premium (roughly 200% increase compared to roughly 50% increase in other layers)...

I can appreciate the need for an increase, though


No typo.
- a "selected" coticule of 200mm x 50mm cost 159 EUR on the old price list.

On the new price list, the same size of hone, "selected" quality, will cost:
for the normal layers: 326 EUR
for La Veinette: 423 EUR
for La Petite Blanche: 391 EUR
for a combo of any other layer: 374 EUR

I believe, the huge price increase of the large stones, has everything to do with their very limited availability and the high demand, mainly from the US sellers. As they say: "Big is beautiful" in the US, and the fact that a lot of synthetic sharpening stones nowadays come standard in 8"X3", fuels the demand for large Coticules. Furthermore, La Veinette and La Petite Blanche are among the thinest layers. Only occasionally they are able to cut a large stones from these. La Grise and La Verte are thicker layers and chances that they can cut larger rectangular hones are somewhat greater but still limited.

For comparison, here the price politics for a "standard" bout size8, which is the most prevalent bout in the Vault of Coticule.be
old price: 42 EUR
new prices:
normal layers: 54EUR
La Veinette: 70 EUR
La Petite Blanche: 65 EUR
combo of any other layer: 62 EUR

Note that this are the official prices, that Ardennes will ask on their website. Resellers might deviate from it.

As I understand it, resellers buy their hones at about 1/3 of the official price. A quick calculation tells me that on an typical 6"X2" (98 EUR old retail price) Coticule, Ardennes had, roughly estimated, less than 10 EUR profit, while the reseller could make 50 EUR profit. I know that's nothing extraordinary on today's market, but it still makes me frown to know that the one who does the most work to create a product earns the least.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-09-12 14:51
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Dr Ralfson Bwhahaha (tat2Ralfy)
Associate
Posts: 3610
iconBart:


Note that this are the official prices, that Ardennes will ask on their website. Resellers might deviate from it.

As I understand it, resellers buy their hones at about 1/3 of the official price. A quick calculation tells me that on an typical 6"X2" (98 EUR old retail price) Coticule, Ardennes had, roughly estimated, less than 10 EUR profit, while the reseller could make 50 EUR profit. I know that's nothing extraordinary on today's market, but it still makes me frown to know that the one who does the most work to create a product earns the least.

Kind regards,
Bart.


Bang on Sir Bart, and by the law of percentages, wont those same resellers me making even more profit with the new prices?

Your Sceptical friend
Ralfson (Dr)
We Are All Pioneers In Our Own Right.
The Infamous Coticule Crew
Pip Pip Old Bean
2010-09-12 17:57
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
icontat2Ralfy:

Bang on Sir Bart, and by the law of percentages, wont those same resellers me making even more profit with the new prices?

Your Sceptical friend
Ralfson (Dr)


That depends. I don't know how Ardennes' new price list for resellers looks. A profit margin can be calculated as a percentage, but it can also be a fixed amount. But let's not make the reckoning of the Coticule resellers. I only wanted to explain that with the current demand / availability ratio of Coticule hones, and concerning the investments needed, a price increase sounds to me not only logical, but also unavoidable.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-09-12 21:53
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chti_lolo
Posts: 376
I have got good news from Maurice this morning. He has found a selected "La Veinette" for me:) . As I have contacted him two months ago for this stone, he has applied the old price list:) :) (very kind of him).
So, in less than two weeks, a beautiful "La Veinette" will be mine.


Laurent
2010-09-13 19:16
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Dr Ralfson Bwhahaha (tat2Ralfy)
Associate
Posts: 3610
iconchti_lolo:
I have got good news from Maurice this morning. He has found a selected "La Veinette" for me:) . As I have contacted him two months ago for this stone, he has applied the old price list:) :) (very kind of him).
So, in less than two weeks, a beautiful "La Veinette" will be mine.


Laurent


Wonderful news Laurent :thumbup:
I am sure you will enjoy its virtues very much.

Best Regards
Ralfson (Dr)
We Are All Pioneers In Our Own Right.
The Infamous Coticule Crew
Pip Pip Old Bean
2010-09-15 00:11
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Wim Decraene (decraew)
Insider +1
From: Belgium
Posts: 447
So, does this mean they will kind of certify the stones they will sell, like "This is a Genuine <insert layer name>" ? Or is it obvious, looking at the hone, which layer it is (it isn't to me in any case)? Could be important if you want to sell the stone in the future ...
[Last edited by decraew, 2010-09-15 11:56]
2010-09-15 10:32
Avatar
chti_lolo
Posts: 376
icontaf2ralfi:
Wonderful news Laurent :thumbup:
I am sure you will enjoy its virtues very much.

Yes, I'm a very lucky guy either to join this group and to find that hone
I'm waiting forward to seeing the UPS delivary man or woman.:lol:

icondecraew:
Or is it obvious, looking at the hone, which layer it is

As soon as I will have my hone, I will post some pictures, so you can compare (only the appearance) with the other specimens in the vault or the new Ralphy's one and check if there is consistence in this layer.
As far as I am concerned, I am not very interested in a kind of certicate glued on the hone. The better way to certify a hone would be to have an available trustworthy database (if the layers are constistent enough)


Regards

Laurent
2010-09-15 20:17
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
La Veinette and La Petite Blanche are very consistent layers. They are both very thin layers. So thin that they always deliver a natural combo, with the BBW bonded to the Coticule by nature. Only rarely you'll see a glued one, and that's usually one that separated from it's BBW. Other Coticule layers are thicker, which allows for 2, 3 or sometimes even 4 slices to be sawed out of one slab of raw rock. Some of those thicker layers do show variation in abrasive properties throughout the thickness of the layer.
To understand this, you need to consider how Coticule was formed about 480 million years ago. At that time, as sea was present at that part of the world. Huge amounts of clay minerals were deposited at the bottom of this sea. They would later become the Blue Rock. Every so often a Volcano erupted, blowing large amounts of ashes in the atmosphere. Those ashes came back down and sunk to the bottom of the sea, leaving a thinner layer of ashes on to of the sediment. When the volcano went asleep, another thick layer of clay minerals sedimented on top of the volcanic ashes. I'm not going to explain the complete process, but those layers of ashes would eventually become the Coticule layers. If the ashes were a thin layer, so is the corresponding Coticule layer. It is not difficult to understand that volcanic ashes, fallen from the sky and sunken in the ocean, will be very homogeneous, certainly if the layer is not thick. A thicker layer will still be homogeneous in a planar way, but can show difference at various depth levels.

Wim, you are bringing up a valid point. I too think that Ardennes should sell the named layers with a certificate, because certain people might be tempted to put unknown layers on the second had market, declared as La Veinette, or La Petite Blanche. In fact, that's already happening as we speak. Only a few days ago, I saw a post on this very forum, with a supposed La Petite Blanche, that didn't look like a La Petite Blanche at all.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-09-15 21:15
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chti_lolo
Posts: 376
Bart,

I'm not sure someone will buy a second hand "La Petite Blanche" if it doesn't look like a "La Petite BLanche" even with a certificate. A certificate is certainly a plus for a buyer but I think if a layer is put on the market with a certificate, the layer has to be very consistent in properties or it means nothing.

Regards


Laurent
2010-09-16 19:26
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
iconchti_lolo:
Bart,

I'm not sure someone will buy a second hand "La Petite Blanche" if it doesn't look like a "La Petite BLanche" even with a certificate. A certificate is certainly a plus for a buyer but I think if a layer is put on the market with a certificate, the layer has to be very consistent in properties or it means nothing.

Regards


Laurent

Yes, but the problem is that not everyone can determine the layer by seeing pictures. And most buyers won't have a clue about the differences between various layers.

La Petite Blanche an La Veinette are very consistent in properties. The "Les Latneuses" layer shows a bit more variation, but if I ever needed to commit to one single Coticule, it would be a Les Latneuses. Any Les Latneuses...:)

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-09-16 20:43
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Torben Pedersen (torbenbp)
Advisor
From: Denmark
Posts: 1024
"A second hand coticule"...

Well,unless the previous owner, invented some kinda automatic honing machinery,able of fully honing one razor pr.minute,I really wouldnt worry about it being "second hand". After all,it`s been on it`s way for 480 million years.And it will last the "second owner" a lifetime as well.

Torbs
Torben Pedersen
Moellevaenget 15 2th
7900 Nykoebing Mors
Denmark
"If it works dont break it..?"
2010-09-16 20:55
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
That is true. On the excellent German website about "Belgischer Brocken" (the German name for Coticules), there is a picture of an old Coticule.

According to the accompanying (German) text, the stone has seen 150 years of professional use in a carpenter's workshop where it was utilized by 4 coworkers. The stone was still functional.



How about that?:)

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-09-16 21:15