Rules of conduct

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TM280
Insider
From: Norway
Posts: 270
Hi Paul,
I am not annoyed by databases (which I believe are wiki's, and therefore open, therefore a possibility to make a difference if desired...) nor am I particularly annoyed by bad advice. I put my two cents in elsewhere in order to give another perspective, an I am happy with that.

What does annoy me, which Tok unfortunately is subject to due to his forum participation, is fallacious and dishonest argumentative strategies (circular, straw man, and begging the question arguments, to name a few concrete examples) with the sole purpose of putting an uppity upstart in their place. My posting here is to add my sympathy for his situation.

I don't believe anyone would be annoyed who didn't feel some attachment to the forum endeavor. This is a confirmation of these forum's role in our lives, not a condemnation of any set of participants. If we didn't care we would just go away. I also reserve the right to call daddy a jerk, if he's acting like one. Sitting on laurels is not a very attractive position, and I see no reason why it should be respected or have the weight to silence discussion.

respectfully,
Torolf
2010-11-09 16:44
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Torben Pedersen (torbenbp)
Advisor
From: Denmark
Posts: 1024
No,I`m not really annoyed as I never go there anymore ;)

Life is too short to get annoyed at a website. If you dont like it,dont go there!

The people over at SRP are surely very dedicated and have gathered a tremendous amount of knowledge and information. Make the best use of the information you need and disregard the rest.Heck,all the friendly and helpfull people are right here :w00t:

That`s my two dimes for today.

Torbs
Torben Pedersen
Moellevaenget 15 2th
7900 Nykoebing Mors
Denmark
"If it works dont break it..?"
2010-11-09 16:44
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Paul
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 1388
iconTM280:
Hi Paul,
I am not annoyed by databases (which I believe are wiki's, and therefore open, therefore a possibility to make a difference if desired...) nor am I particularly annoyed by bad advice. I put my two cents in elsewhere in order to give another perspective, an I am happy with that.

What does annoy me, which Tok unfortunately is subject to due to his forum participation, is fallacious and dishonest argumentative strategies (circular, straw man, and begging the question arguments, to name a few concrete examples) with the sole purpose of putting an uppity upstart in their place. My posting here is to add my sympathy for his situation.

I don't believe anyone would be annoyed who didn't feel some attachment to the forum endeavor. This is a confirmation of these forum's role in our lives, not a condemnation of any set of participants. If we didn't care we would just go away. I also reserve the right to call daddy a jerk, if he's acting like one. Sitting on laurels is not a very attractive position, and I see no reason why it should be respected or have the weight to silence discussion.

respectfully,
Torolf


Torolf,

You don't get to charge in, call me dishonest throwing around different types of logical fallacies, accuse me of sitting on my laurels and trying to silence discussion without at least a response. That's among the most dishonest posts I've seen on this or any other fora.

Unless the list of logical fallacies was to prepare me for what you were about to levy against me?:confused: Because yours were the most concrete examples of those that I've seen...

I simply gave him a brief synopsis of how all got here, and I said he should take his complaints about another site to said site. That is a discussion forum with a section for discussing that forum. If you think it's a good idea to trash other sites, then we'll just disagree on that. I don't think it's wise to lie while calling someone dishonest though. I never tried to silence anything. I said tell the people with whom you have a problem. This isn't some school yard where you are coming to the aid of the someone being bullied. If he has a problem with SRP, then he should go there. In fact, I'm encouraging him to voice his complaints and concerns... just there. You act as if they are some kind of evil which needs to be stood up to.

My point about myopia is a general one, and it's likely that you jumped to another conclusion there, since your propensity to do so was already on display in the rest of that post. There is a great big world out there as it relates to wetshaving, and there's no reason why we should expect anyone to cater to our interests somewhere else... especially when we have a place that does that already.

I find it inconceivable that you or anyone else would come in here acting like it's a bad thing to say "hey, don't talk about them behind their back. Go discuss your differences with them."

Of course, you're not new to the whole misplaced righteous indignation...

I'll not patronize you by signing off "respectfully"...

Later :thumbdown:
[Last edited by richmondesi, 2010-11-09 19:11]
Paul
"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" - Greg Anderson
my blog- and it works again :p
2010-11-09 18:50
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Chris Calvé (wdwrx)
From: Canada
Posts: 703
2010-11-09 19:04
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Paul
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 1388
iconwdwrx:


Well, in that case, he should have referenced that thread and not addressed me personally. If that's the case, I'll gladly apologize...
Paul
"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" - Greg Anderson
my blog- and it works again :p
2010-11-09 19:11
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TM280
Insider
From: Norway
Posts: 270
Paul,

I am terribly sorry! In no way did anything I have said refer to you. I should have made that clear and it was dumb of me.

I have been following the specific thread which seems to have started this one, as Chris has kindly pointed out.

And it looks like your charge of myopia holds rather well:blush:

If at all possible please try to forget the unpleasantness I caused....

respectfully,
Torolf

edit: I was referencing what I see as Tok's treatment by others, elsewhere...
2010-11-09 19:49
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RicTic
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 240
iconTM280:
What does annoy me, which Tok unfortunately is subject to due to his forum participation, is fallacious and dishonest argumentative strategies (circular, straw man, and begging the question arguments, to name a few concrete examples) with the sole purpose of putting an uppity upstart in their place. My posting here is to add my sympathy for his situation.

This is exactly why I'd never be prone to offering any experience I have (as little as it is) with a coticule, or endeavour to be so bold as to offer (God forbid) an opinion about coticules on that site.
I've read that thread (amongst others) and he has my sympathies too. As do all the other uppity upstarts brave enough to wave the coticule flag.
Is offering your 2 cents worth it?
I don't think so.
Kek man camov te jib bolli-mengreskoenaes,
Man camov te jib weshenjugalogonaes.
2010-11-09 20:06
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Torben Pedersen (torbenbp)
Advisor
From: Denmark
Posts: 1024
We are talking about razors,hones and strops.....
It aint a matter of life and death,its a luxury "problem".

We could all live easily withouth these items...Having the luxury of worring about different coticule layers,different manmade hones etc. is our own choise and because we have the freedom to do so. Few people have that luck.

I respect all the different shades of this rather silly hobby,as long as we try to do our very best with simple means. But if the Zen is lost,people got the wrong understanding.

T
Torben Pedersen
Moellevaenget 15 2th
7900 Nykoebing Mors
Denmark
"If it works dont break it..?"
2010-11-09 20:27
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Dr Ralfson Bwhahaha (tat2Ralfy)
Associate
Posts: 3610
icontorbenbp:
We are talking about razors,hones and strops.....
It aint a matter of life and death,its a luxury "problem".


Unless you happen to make a living selling the said items :P
Ooops!

Carry on, bwhahahahaha

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)
We Are All Pioneers In Our Own Right.
The Infamous Coticule Crew
Pip Pip Old Bean
2010-11-09 20:51
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Chris Calvé (wdwrx)
From: Canada
Posts: 703
icontat2Ralfy:
icontorbenbp:
We are talking about razors,hones and strops.....
It aint a matter of life and death,its a luxury "problem".


Unless you happen to make a living selling the said items :P
Ooops!

Carry on, bwhahahahaha

Best regards
Ralfson (Dr)


you took the words right out of my mouth!
For the rest of us, ya, it's just a hobby. Some people seem to make their living out of it. And therein lies the problem, methinks. guys protecting their interests (and image) in an underhanded way. That thread was a classic example.

Torolf said it waaayyy better than I ever could:
iconTorolf:
fallacious and dishonest argumentative strategies (circular, straw man, and begging the question arguments, to name a few concrete examples) with the sole purpose of putting an uppity upstart in their place. My posting here is to add my sympathy for his situation.


I had to look some of that shit up to be sure i was sure what he was talking about.... I was just left with a vague feeling of unease after reading that exchange in the referenced thread... no way could I put it into words as eloquently as Torolf.
I for one have learned to not tilt that particular wind-mill. If you want a rise, post about how you've dulled the edge on a glass.... some people (whom you just know know better), start acting like they can't wrap their minds around it. There's definately some politics goin' on there.
[Last edited by wdwrx, 2010-11-09 21:20]
2010-11-09 21:14
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Smythe
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 990
This is one of the reasons I stay out of “honing” forums.

I read someone “sig-line” witch said “There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, and every single one of them is right!" R. Kipling”…
Talk about sharpening razors and often the discussion goes in nine and sixty different directions.

But to put this into prospective… the original poster in that thread only wanted to touch-up his razor with the least “gear-count” possible (preferably, just one hone). It’s a simple request… like, “how many toilets does he need take a s**t?” (for starters, he’s only has one a$$). But before long folks are suggesting multiple hones as if he wants to get into the sharpening business.
Sure, multiple hones will get the thing sharp… but for just a touch-up, is bordering on the ridiculous.

But what I find humorous is the condescending attitude displayed by some of the “know it all's”, of whom experience should have thought them better… but sadly, it appears they haven’t learned much more than the little they already know… maybe there’s nothing more to learn:( .
2010-11-09 23:28
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Paul
Advisor
From: United States
Posts: 1388
Torolf,

It's forgotten. I should have asked for clarification prior to responding:blush:

On another note, seriously, why are still talking about this? :huh:
Paul
"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it" - Greg Anderson
my blog- and it works again :p
2010-11-09 23:49
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
I didn't plan to chime in again at this thread, but having now read that particular thread on SRP, want to extend my sympathies to Tok.

I was given the exact same treatment on SRP, when I had the nerve 2 years ago to share a method for honing a razor from dull to sharp on just a Coticule. It is incredibly frustrating to have your words being misrepresented and thrown back at you, by someone who apparently had a lifetime practice with using fallacies.
In that respect, Tok's first post in this thread was friendlier than I would have formulated it, standing in his shoes. :rolleyes:

The problem with SRP is that the big shots over there were caught with their pants down, and they still are every time someone speaks the word "Coticule". They've tried abbreviating it to "Coti", but it doesn't help...:D They've tried banning a couple of guys, but that didn't help either.

But I was talking about being caught with pants down. I'll elaborate. Over the years, SRP became a very gear driven forum. If a forum is not specifically managed to prevent so from happening, it will eventually become clogged with members that have a very specific agenda. The majority of people that READ forums are in search of information. They might pose a couple of questions. They might even answer a few other peoples' questions, but normally they move on after being served. Nothing wrong with that. A genuine forum's main goal should be to offer support on a particular field. Nonetheless, some visitors stick around. That can be for social reasons, or because they find it rewarding to help newer members out, perhaps they become part of the forum's inner circle, help out with maintaining the website, or conducting research, etc... But there are other reasons why people stay active as well: some guys have commercial reflexes and they discover an easy target-able market in the constant stream of new users. Others develop a gear acquisition disorder, a condition they seek to reinforce by fantasizing about imaginary properties of the gear they hoard. Razors that perform magical shaves, strops that turn "mediocre" edges into stellar ones, hones that that can actually read the word Sheffield on the tang of a razor and refuse to function on any other steel...
Put both groups (the commercially inclined and the self-restraining impaired) together, and you end up with a forum full of myths and fallacies and a distinct lack of critical thinking. Of course, valuable information will still be intermixed. This can go on for a long time, certainly when representatives of both groups are allowed near the forums power buttons. SRP is a sad example of that, in spite the many fine gentlemen who have contributed there over the years, and in some cases still are.
But you can't stand up over there to claim that with a minimum of dexterity, a little practice and a layer of tape someone inexperienced can put and edge on a razor that can rival with any of these guy's edges of 20$/per sharpening. For starters, they've not come up with it themselves (a slight problem), secondly: it's bad for business, and thirdly it inherently mocks all that imaginary bullshit about special hones for Sheffield steel and other fantasies.

That is why you can't make such references on SRP.

There is nothing that can be done, and as I put in my other post, getting all worked up about it does not serve anything or anyone.
I posted in a thread over at Badger and Blade last night, where the atmosphere is in my experience much more open.Someone posed the question "Do you really want to make converts? Why?" . I answered that I couldn't care less. And I meant it. Coticule.be exists for those who manage to find it and happen to share the owners' (Ray, Ralfson, Smythe, and myself) enthusiasm for a no-nonsense approach towards shaving with straight razors in general and sharpening stuff with natural Coticule stones in particular.
It is clear to me that, on SRP, we're treated not much different than the US treats Cuba. (with a boycott) That makes me Fidel Castro or Ché Guevara. If I were sure which one, I could change my avatar. :D
But I had as much fun over here when we were with 5 members as now we've crossed the 500 mark. So, to paraphrase something that a good friend of mine tattooed on his upper arm: "Screw them all!"

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-11-10 00:24
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Bart Torfs (Bart)
Associate
From: Belgium
Posts: 5001
iconrichmondesi:

On another note, seriously, why are still talking about this? :huh:


Because conversations about shaving and the related topics are always open on Coticule.be

A review of a shaving forum can be as useful as a review of a shaving soap. Perhaps even more so.

Kind regards,
Bart.
Then the light shone, trumpets sounded and I got to the other side, where men shave with smiles on their faces, razors pop hairs, and a continuous choir singing «~~Keen and Smooth~~» is heard everywhere. (Matt)
2010-11-10 00:30
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danjared
From: United States
Posts: 1000
Bart, now I want to see a picture of you with a beret on. Alas, you might need to grow a beard. Actually, I think Che might have had less facial hair than Castro, so you're probably him.
2010-11-10 00:32